family life

That was not my logic. I was saying that it is a disservice to hold up the extra-Biblical standard that all women should be at home raising their children, as the only Biblical standard. That ignores the reality of many people, a single mother who needs to work to feed her children should not be told that the only Biblical standard is the mother staying at home. Instead we should look to what is ideal and Biblical for the individual, not what the ideal standard is for everyone and say that some individuals are the exception, because that just serves to alienate and embarrass them. So no your point does not follow my logic.
I was saying that it is a disservice to hold up the extra-Biblical standard that all women should be at home raising their children, as the only Biblical standard.


I don't remember that ever being a biblical standard.
I ran across this interesting article that is relevant to our discussion: http://www.antiochian.org/node/21339
Now hold on. A very good point was made earlier: we've stopped doing slavery. It was NEVER right in any way, Irish Tiger. How could it be!? If you think slavery was once in any way acceptable, give yourself a reality check.
"Owning" another person, considering that person your property, and having the legal ability to have intercourse with the slave if it's a female (which was allowed by God-given Biblical law remember) is simply not nice.
Yet, slaves were required to obey their masters, just as women were required to obey their husbands. (Female slaves were even ordered by God to have less rights than female!There is simply no saying the Old Testament isn't rife with terribly unjust laws about women.) God allowed it because the Hebrews were such jerks at the time, fornicating and worshiping the wrong gods and on and on. He was trying to work with them. If he'd held them to the standards of today, they'd have all turned away forever and His plans would be bye-bye. Slavery was NEVER NEVER NEVER right, divorce was never right, nor woman's subservience to men.

Besides, when you think about it, simply makes no logical sense. What purpose is there in a man being in charge of the household? How is it morally correct? What good does it do for God?
Dr. as I mentioned to you, I read that article you referred to and I liked how it talked about Christ being the "necessary third person in every marriage". Christ needs to be the center of any marriage, something that hasn't been discussed in this topic.

The Foolish One:
What purpose is there in a man being in charge of the household? How is it morally correct? What good does it do for God?


I encourage you to read or listen to this sermon. http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/husbands-who-love-like-christ-and-the-wives-who-submit-to-them

I would like to add something. Men and women are equal and different. We are equal in that we can both be saved from our sins and have a relationship with God. God does not love women any more or less than He loves men. We are both necessary in this world and we are dependent on one another. Men and women have a right to equal opportunities and protection. But, we are different. We are different in many areas. We are physically different, we think differently, we have different needs, we respond to situations differently. We have different strengths and different weaknesses. Look around you, different things have different roles, in nature and in society. Just as individuals in society have different roles, so do men and women. In marriage we are equal in that we are both dependent on one another (and Christ) for a healthy relationship. We are equal in that we both have to work together and support one another. But we are also different in marriage as we have different roles.
2 Corinthians 12:10

Your money your singleness marriage talent and time
They were loaned to you to show the world that Christ is Divine ~Lecrae

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But, we are different. We are different in many areas. We are physically different, we think differently, we have different needs, we respond to situations differently
I would say individuals are different in many areas but it's not helpful to say something like all men or all women think like this or have different needs. They are responding like that because they are individuals not because they're a man or a woman.
Irish Tiger

It was unlikely some preacher, likely a Protestant one, would be convincing where even CS Lewis himself failed in Mere Christianity. His premise stems from the supposition that the metaphor of a marriage union being like Christ and His church means that the wife would perhaps be subservient. In the first place, one could argue he is taking the metaphor too literally. But even giving his claim is not like saying because the moon is like silver we ought to start a mine there, he fails simply because he misunderstands God's masculinity. We think of God as a Father because He impregnates the world, not the world Him. "He is full and overflows." That is the way in which a wife is like the Church. The Church is reliant on Him, impregnated by him, brought into existence by him.

In any case, you ignored almost the entire post. Did you really think it would not be bothering that you only addressed the tail end? Bad, bad, bad. The fact still stands that woman's supposed subservience is in the dirt along with slavery, unless you can refute the points I made previously.
Foolish One,
I chose to not respond to what you said because we were getting very off subject from Renae's original question. If you would like to continue talking about slavery, please, feel free to start a new topic on it. I will respond to what you said, but after that I would prefer the topic is dropped or moved.

"Owning" another person, considering that person your property, and having the legal ability to have intercourse with the slave if it's a female (which was allowed by God-given Biblical law remember) is simply not nice.


I never said it was nice. Nor am I saying it is something I would ever practice.

If he'd held them to the standards of today, they'd have all turned away forever and His plans would be bye-bye


Yes, I'm sure the Lord God, Creator of the Universe, could have His plans upset because of the actions of the humans He created.

divorce was never right


Actually, it was okay to divorce on the grounds that one, or both parties, was committing sexual immorality.

We think of God as a Father because He impregnates the world, not the world Him. "He is full and overflows." That is the way in which a wife is like the Church. The Church is reliant on Him, impregnated by him, brought into existence by him


So, basically, you and I just don't agree on what are metaphors in the Bible and what are actually commands from God.
2 Corinthians 12:10

Your money your singleness marriage talent and time
They were loaned to you to show the world that Christ is Divine ~Lecrae

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So I was looking at this and I saw that some of think that the father should always be in charge of the house..but do you think he should still be in charge if he is abusive or drug addict..things like that?
I have no experience with things of that sort (a father who is a drug addict or abusive) but I don't think that such a man is even mentally capable of being in charge of the household.
Job 37:14-16
"Listen to this, Job; stop and consider God's wonders. Do you know how God controls the clouds and makes his lightning flash? Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?"
of course he's not. you don't even have to have a dad who is like that to know he shouldn't be in charge. they're are a lot of guys even if they aren't that bad who shouldn't be in charge of the family.
That's a good question, Amarinda. I believe his position should still be respected as much as possible. But if he's trying to lead you in a way that's not right, then there are things that you'd need to stand against. It would be a difficult position to be in.
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Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
I don't mean to be mean or anything but I don't think he could get any respect. somebody like that shouldn't be in charge of a family.
Yes, I definitely see what you're saying. I didn't say the man should be respected, but his position. He's supposed to be the overseer of the family, that's what i personally believe anyway, so if you're living beneath his roof and he has a job supporting the family, then yes. I'd say his God-given position should be given as much respect as is possible in that situation. When I say "respect" however, I mostly mean being courteous and supportive of the good things in him, if there are some. If he sees nothing in you but the same bitterness he feels, then he would have no reason to want the same thing that gives you the grace it forgive him. It would be hard. And I'm not saying there should be no consequences for his actions. What he is doing is clearly wrong and hurtful. I'm not quite sure what would be good advice to give to someone being abused. Each situation dealing with physical abuse and the abuse of drugs, alcohol, etc. is unique. And as I said, I have not experienced that before, and hopefully am not coming off as hypocritical. But the exact kind of response that would be best for that situation seems like it would vary a bit from situation to situation.
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Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
I think the only advice to give to someone being abused is get out and call the police, when would that ever be the wrong advice?
Only if they were made to go back and live with their parents again. But that does sound like the best advice. They also have specific phone numbers for victims of abuse.
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Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
....Say women have less rights then men is like saying you can't have tattoos because the Bible says so... It all had to do with the current culture. When Paul told them to submit to their husbands, he wasn't saying to ALL. He was saying to them. The gods for them at the time were all female, and so they idolized females. I must say, I am kindof disappointed at the amount of sexist comments made on this Christian board. You all have the rights to your opinion, but when you start to think you are more than someone else, or the opposite sex, you are just opening up the right to be abusive. I have delt with abusive people enough (None in my own family, mind you) to know that thinking someone is beneath you is the start. It gives you the RIGHT to abuse. Thats my word, and they do come from very credible people.

Also, @thirteenth doctor, I wish that it was as easy as that. But here is the thing: the abuser is almost ALWAYS in control of their mental condition. They often do have brain washing tactics through manipulation.

Also, to answer your question, Renae, it is a hierarchy, but with the parents equal. The Bible does say to respect your elders, which includes parents. I do think that having the democracy is usually a better idea, gives the kids a chance to say something, but the parents are in no way needing to do so.

(What I meant by the tattoos statement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3voADV14Y)
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-NarniaQA Guy. Blogger. And human being. And minecraft commentator/dictator. BEAT THAT!!! I mean to the human being...
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