Saints

This topic has recently come up, and I didn't want to further disrupt another thread with it, so I figured I'd start my first thread on this wonderful board. ;) Figures that my first post and first topic would both be in the church. =P

Anyways. Sam said:
Sam wrote:If God works through saints, why doubt what they can do? It's obviously not them themselves, but WHO is working through them.

I responded:
Christian wrote:But Sammy, don't you believe that all Christians are saints? What makes some people a special class of Christian?

The Foolish One contorted:
PF wrote:ARE YOU NUTS!?! Oh wait, it's you, Christian... Yeah, you are nuts.
Ahem. It really is true that not everyone is a saint according to the Catholic meaning of the word, which is someone who has been officially recognized as a saint for performing miracles. Not everyone performs miracles. Which is fine. It doesn't make them a lesser Christian, necessarily. It merely means they obviously do not receive recognition for the special act of performing miracles as they are not known to have done any. (The miracles have to be after death.)
And if you happen to have your own little definition, that's cute. But the Catholic Church canonizes saints, not you.
Words mean specific things. You cannot change their meaning because you dislike it. And THAT is what a saint means, buster. And as a Catholic I happen to appreciate and love them for being tortured, martyred, stoned, writing incredibly beautiful theology, suffering illnesses and through painful stigmatas, being burned at the stake... For God. I think that's all quite commendable. And no, not all Christians have done that. Not everyone is Saint. I am not. You are not. We and the masses do not deserve the honor of sainthood. Got it?
I apologize for going off on you. You hit a nerve, though I realize it was unintentional. Please realize I consider you kind and intelligent as person, I merely consider that statement, though you meant well, utterly revolting.


So.... obviously there is disagreement here.

First of all, I don't believe I'm the one who is using "my own little definition." While yours may not be original to you, it is definitely extra-biblical. I challenge you to name me one place in Scripture where a saint is defined exclusively as "someone who has been officially recognized as such for performing miracles." The definition I use comes from the multiple times that the Apostle Paul calls all Christians, collectively, saints.

1 Corinthians 1:2 = "the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

Acts 9:13 = "I have heard from many about this man [Saul of Tarsus], how much harm he did to Thy saints at Jerusalem"

Romans 1:7 = "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints"

Romans 16:15 = "Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them"

I could bore you with more, but I'll just post some references, if you care:
2 Corinthians 1:1,
Acts 9:32,
Acts 26:10,
Ephesians 1:1,
Philippians 1:1,
Colossians 1:2,
2 Corinthians 13:13,
Philippians 4:21-22,
Romans 12:13,
2 Corinthians 6:1,
1 Timothy 6:10,
Hebrews 13:24,
Colossians 1:4,
and probably many, many others that I just didn't have the time to look up. =P

So... I think I have sufficiently proven that the burden of proof is on you, O foolish one, to inform me of the "correct" definition of the word "saint," which currently seems to be in contrast to the biblical one.
I like Ephesians 1:1, when the people of Ephesus are referred to as Saints "in Christ". :) I found this video with my favorite pastor which is relevant to the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-12mcCLbX4
We are all saint sanctified. And who gave the Catholic church permission to make all the laws. All the laws to be followed are in the Bible. Even if the pope had authority, he cannot make the decisions he makes. I am just giving an example. And really Catholics tend to magnify things and Protestants do not take a lot of things literally.
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God gave permission. In the Catholic Church the pope when speaking on faith and morals is being divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. A quick clarification, the Catholic Church teaches that all people who are in heaven are saints. Those who have been proved to be in heaven by miracles attributed to them after their death are the "major" saints the difference is in the capital and lowercase S. I use major to say proven in a way.
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Why should I believe the Catholic Church? Most every thing they says goes against the Bible itself. The Bible is the final authority on anything and the Bible says we are saints. And pray tell were did the God give permission? Even if you say that it is passed down from Peter, Peter was over the church in Jerusalem and over the Jews not the Gentiles. If any one was for the Gentiles it was Paul.
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Some of those verses seem only to mean we all have the potential to be saints, Christian. I'll have to get back to you about those others. Really, you got such a pathetic amount of evidence. I can't believe it. What good is fifteen verses?
Blitz wrote:Why should I believe the Catholic Church? Most every thing they says goes against the Bible itself.

Such as?
Blitz wrote: The Bible is the final authority on anything and the Bible says we are saints.

The Catholic church assembled the Bible. If it has authority, then that is because we made it.
Such as the fact of Purgatory. I definitely do not believe the Bible every said a thing about it. Saint for another and the Communion. Also Mary's never ending virginity and actually praying to the saints. And the Pope having the ability to excommunicate people is stretching imagination.
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In my Bible it does. But I forgot that you guys removed various books from the Bible. Anywho this discussion is in particular about Saints. If you have any grievances with the Church besides saints, I ask you to post them elsewhere. In regard to praying to the saints, do you ask your family and friends for prayers? It is the same thing. If you believe that we are alive in heaven then the saints should be able to hear are prayers to them and the intercede on our behalf.
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Jesus is our Advocate in heaven. Why pray to the saint for them to pray to Jesus for you? It doesn't even make sense. I mean I doubt people in heaven can hear our prays. The only person we can actually pray to is Jesus. Pray is talking to Jesus for him to go to God. I doubt it would work that you can pray to saints.
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Again I ask you do you ask others to pray for you? We ask the Saints to pray on our behalf for us, just as you would a family member or friend. On the saints being able to hear our prayers,
golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revalation 5:8
This shows that the saints can hear our prayers. St. Paul says all Christians should intercede,
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:1–4)
So it doesn't contradict only praying to Jesus. Prayer is talking to saints. Why couldn't the hear our prayers, Jesus hears our prayers.
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I don't know how this might play into your discussion, but I looked up the word for "Saint(s)" in the Greek language, and here's what I found:
Pages 986-987 wrote:HAGIOS (ἅγιος), for the meaning and use of which see HOLY, B, No. 1 [see below], is used as a noun in the singular in Phil. 4:21, where pas, "every," is used with it. In the plural, as used of believers, it designates all such and is not applied merely to persons of exceptional holiness, or to those who, having died, were characterized by the exceptional acts of saintliness. See especially 2 Thess. 1:10, where "His siaints" are also described as "them that believed," i.e., the whole number of the redeemed. They are called "holy ones" in Jude 14, R.V. For the term as applied to the Holy Spirit see HOLY SPIRIT. See also SANCTIFY.


I skipped one paragraph, as I don't believe the (a) definiton applied to the subject:
Pages 556-557 wrote:HAGIOS (ἅγιος), akin to A, Nos. 1 and 2, which are from the same root as hagnos (found in hazō, to venerate), fundamentally signifies separated (among the Greeks, dedicated to the gods), and hence, in Scripture in its moral and spiritual significance, separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God, sacred.
(a)...
(b)It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way that involves Divine demands upon the coduct of believers. These are alled hagioi, saints, i.e., 'sanctified' or 'holy ones.'
This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a holy manner of life, 1 Pet. 1:15; 2 Pet. 3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple," 1 Cor. 3:17 (a local church); Eph. 2:21 (the whole Church), cp. 5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1 Pet. 2:5; "a holy nation," 2:9.
"It is evident that hagios and its kindred words ... express some thing more and higher than hieros, sacred, outwardly associated with God; ... something more than semnos, worthy, honourable; something more than hagnos, pure, free from defilement. Hagios is ... more comprehensive. ... It is characteristically godlikeness" (G. B. Stevens, in Hastings' Bib. Dic.)

W. E. Vine, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc. 1997)

The second quote goes on to say that "the adjective is also used of the outer part of the Tabernacle," and if you are interested to read farther you may pursue it by finding a copy of the dictionary to read yourself. :)
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"Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments." Psalm 119:164
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